warcraftfanonfandomcom-20200215-history
Talk:For Love and Honor
Hello, I hope you like my works so far. If there is any questions, concern, or constructive criticism, please post them here, preferably ones relating to For Love and Honor. Chaudew 18:37, 30 June 2009 (UTC) Ow. Your use of tense and grammar is incoherent. Far from approaching Golden's style of writing, you've managed to produce a pile of present tense run on sentences that are extremely difficult to read. EDIT. Then edit some more. Then give it to someone who owes you a favour to edit it. Lilth the character seems to fit the classic definition of a persecuted purity sue. You put "Chaude" in, always a bad sign when the author's pen name is the same as the character. You lore raep. Your short lived elf is unsupported by either lore or fiction, and exists only to justify your 2 characters having a relationship. In short, this is dreadful stream of consciousness blather. I might care about the characters if the writing was readable, but it aint. From a technical point of view present tense with expositions undertaken via conversation in past tense is almost unreadable. Beginning, Middle, End. Not only does a story need this, events need this. In short: this reminds me of horrible Greek myth fanfic I wrote when I was 10. Rantinan 01:30, 1 July 2009 (UTC) p.s. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PuritySue Read this.Rantinan 02:08, 1 July 2009 (UTC) I see. Thank you for the detailed advice. Chaudew 17:17, 1 July 2009 (UTC) @ Rantinan, I do appreciate your review, however, I did specifically request "constructive criticism" only. Please allow me to show you which comments you wrote are constructive criticism and which are deconstructive. In addition, please allow me to show you what I, and many others, expect from constructive criticism: Constructive criticism: "Your use of tense and grammar is incoherent." - A good start, but there was no example with the reviewer's take on what the correct version may look like. Without that, this comment has little value to be of any benefit to the author. "Lilth the character seems to fit the classic definition of a persecuted purity sue." - She does "seem" like she fits the persecuted purity sue. The chronicle time lines within my two stories are short, thus it is unrealistic for her to make drastic character personality changes. It also depends if the reader caught the small foreshadows or not. Lilth ends up killing someone, but to keep the personality real for future development that I plan for her to grow, she has to fit the model to some degree. After all, she is a social outcast, trying to redeem herself. She also attempts to lie and do a cover-up on an operation she failed for a selfish reason, an example that she's not a complete persecuted purity sue. She even lets the Alliance at the wall be nearly wiped out, regretting yes, but had bias to follow through with the orders. Furthermore, she loses against her former comrades in the fourth chapter, as she personally chose to resist arrest. She brought the persecution upon herself that time. I have no intentions in making her perfect, otherwise that destroys her background of being a social outcast. - I've looked at the website that was linked, and I don't see so much of Lilth as being perfect. She as many flaws, some I didn't find an opportunity to get into the story. She is shy and quiet as a sue, but she's observing other characters and calculate ways to deal with them when the time of action arrives. She may not always be successful when interacting with other characters though. Finally, She took her stand against Morton, when he questioned her orders. A sue in most likelihood would've backed off and followed the advice of others, is how I perceive it. "You put "Chaude" in, always a bad sign when the author's pen name is the same as the character." - Thank you for informing me of that. I am indeed an amateur writer/novelist, and I will correct that. Keep in mind there's a missing detail with one of your characters as well. I never had a problem with how the reviewer, or anybody else for that matter, wanted to express his/her own characters by their names. If interested, I'll inform you. "You lore raep." - I assume "raep" is "repeatedly." If not, please clarify, as I've never seen that acronym before. My intention with using quite a bit of lore was to flesh out the world around the characters for people who don't know much about the Warcraft universe. How many people that have some knowledge in the Warcraft lore ever heard about the Sunwell rings? "Your short lived elf is unsupported by either lore or fiction, and exists only to justify your 2 characters having a relationship." - This is the best review comment I've had yet. It is true that the reasoning to justify in lowering Lilth's lifespan is unsupported by lore, but I have difficulty in accepting the fiction part mentioned. This is fan fiction, it should not be a surprised there are some deviations from official lore, or even mainstream ideas/concepts. I've read a short story where a mage casts coned-shape icicle with flames encircling it and wiping out a lot of Scourge fodder. I don't recall mages being able to do that from official lore (let alone in-game), but it is refreshing to see some change, otherwise, what's the point in writing? - I originally never intended for Lilth and Chaude to have such relationship, but to compensate with Lilth's power that she inherited, she had to suffer from something. This has been used before, as Li Xingke from Code Geass has superior strength and strategy, but has his trade-offs, and still has difficult with trained opponents. My decisions are based on most likely probabilities one would take. If I was an outcast in my society, I would much rather find a way to fit in with another society that I am appealed to. "From a technical point of view present tense with expositions undertaken via conversation in past tense is almost unreadable." - This is another good review comment. Thank you for pointing that out. I'll keep working on that. To make this more beneficial, giving an example on how the correct version may look like would be appreciated. "Beginning, Middle, End. Not only does a story need this, events need this." - Thought I had made those clear enough, but if my "use of tense and grammar is incoherent," how can the diagnosis be completely accurate? How do I know the reviewer read the story word-for-word and not skimmed? Having to differentiate between constructive and deconstructive criticism is the sole reason why I ask. 'Deconstructive criticism: "Ow." - Where's the relevance? I understand that you "may bite" and give your opinions, but the review was disrespectful when there was little constructive criticism that was valuable to the author, and more deconstructive criticism against the author's wishes. What ever happened to listing the good aspects of any piece under review? If there were none, state it with a professional attitude. "you've managed to produce a pile of present tense run on sentences that are extremely difficult to read" - When giving reviews, the reviewer is a professional. Failure to do so has little worth to benefit the author and may harm the author. Many people are amateurs and are not aware of every grammar rule. This comment's tone of voice at the beginning killed any hope to make it constructive. What could've been said was something like, "There are consecutive instances of run-on sentences in present tense that makes it difficult to read this story," and give an instance with a correct version that may be used to help the author improve. "EDIT. Then edit some more. Then give it to someone who owes you a favour to edit it." - Professionally unnecessary. These sentences are basically insults. I do edit my stories multiple times to the best of my abilities to detect irregularities within the lore, the story plot, and of course the grammar. There are not many people I know personally that I'd even ask for professional level editing, and favors for the less enthused is ill advised. It's up to the reviewer if he/she wants to take up that task personally, as the reviewer has more knowledge than a lot of people when looking into the framework of any story. After all, how does the reviewer/writer get any new ideas? "In short, this is dreadful stream of consciousness blather." - Ok, but this is Lilth's POV and she prefers to think before acting. Many characters I've read felt rather like they were paper puppets, not giving much a chance to voice their own opinions. A lot of people love the action aspect of stories, but too much of it undermines character development. So I wanted Lilth to more life-like, with a critical mind that surveys the situation and reflects on what just happened, like any real person would. With more creditable reviews, I'll change as needed. I do appreciate your honesty, however, this is another insult that could've been prevented. "I might care about the characters if the writing was readable, but don't." - Sorry, but the end of this comment had to be changed. In this comment, it was again disrespectful. Once the issues are resolved, I hope you do enjoy my stories. "In short: this reminds me of horrible Greek myth fanfic I wrote when I was 10." - Another unnecessary comment. The reviewer is a professional critic, no exceptions. Taking a stab at the author doesn't help the reviewer either. How can the reviewer get credible reviews on his/her own story if the reviewer attacks others? Misc.: "Far from approaching Golden's style of writing" - I did mention anybody could respond to my comment when I used the word "affinity" towards Golden's style of writing, however, assumptions are double-edge swords. I should have clarified that by no means am I near good to her style of writing. I wanted to get across that I use a couple of her writing elements with my own (which I'm still developing). I apologize if this had upset anyone. Expectations: What to expect when reviewing? - In any review, a good reviewer/critic will give the good aspects of the story and its flaws. A good reviewer is considerate of the author's feelings, as with many fan fiction stories, the author is perhaps new to the field and is rather green. This is a great opportunity to help the author out, by giving examples and detailed explanations that helps the author improve. People want to enjoy their own and other peoples' stories, so it is imperative that the reviewer is objective and not subjective when reviewing. This detailed explanation that differentiates what constructive criticism and deconstructive criticism and expectations for constructive criticism was never aimed at harming the reviewer in any way. The time took in writing this shows this author's care for what is said or subtlety meant, but also to help others with any questions, concerns, and unprofessional behavior that may help in their lives when reflected. Now if the reviewer, or any other, simply doesn't want to care what is said here, or possible not care what others say is one way how distrust, cynical assumptions, and sadness and sorrow develop. Do we honestly want all this negativity? I sure don't. I really do hope this was beneficial. Chaudew 16:28, 2 July 2009 (UTC) IF you put as much effort into editing as you did into critiquing my critique, I'd enjoy your writing a lot more. I'm NOT your editor. A critique is not editing. What you wanted (and yeah, what I've suggested) is an editor. Criticism is not me picking out individual bits and saying "fix this", or even picking out the least worst example from your crappy writing and saying "fix this and everything worse than this" The simple fact that you could manage to marshal your thoughts on paper and write coherently in response to my critique PROVES you can actually write when you put your mind to it, so put your mind to it! I'm going to share a John Marasden tip with you. Pretend you're writing a letter to someone you only know vaguely. Most people write letters better than they do fiction, so write letters about your fiction till you can form a coherent narrative. You reject criticism of your lack of narrative as essential to characterisation, but I'm sorry, that's rubbish. I'm not your friend, I'm not your mother, and I'm not your teacher. I don't do "nice" very well. and this WAS a nice review. Tell you what. Here's an HONEST review. Your writing Effing sucks. You obviously just smash words onto the paper and call it done without even re-reading things to make certain they make sense. You try to cram to much into to little space, and leave out details in favour of getting to the "cool stuff" You're patently in love with your characters, and you want us to love them too. But we cant. These characters are not loveable, they are just another pair of goddamend special snowflake paladins to whom neither the lore nor game logic apply. They make Rohen bearable, and that's all I'll give them. You are not Golden, you're not even Fiest, in fact you make Richard A Kanack look like William Shakespeare. Get over yourself, admit you suck, and take a creative writing class. And when you attend it, PAY ATTENTION to people when they tell you you're wrong. But you are an arrogant little tosser with a justification for every single mistake you make and a paragraph of explanation to tell me I'm wrong. That's fine. I'm neither a professional editor, nor do i claim to be. For the people I DO edit for, of which their are several, they understand the phrase "this effinn sucks" mean it needs rewriting, without me having to act like I'm an English teacher instead of just well read. In short. I'm not your mother. I'm your teacher. I'm not your Professional Editor. And I'm not your friend. Put your effort into not sucking, not into defending your suck, and you might even be successful. Rantinan 00:03, October 16, 2009 (UTC) unlike these people, I actually looked at the older version of this story (before it all got removed), and I actually liked this story, so fuck to all the people who hate it.